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Transcript of It's Okay if You're not Okay podcast Episode 10 1/6/2020

Keith:              I was trying to, decided if I needed to edit that or if I needed to explain how you just had a dream about how you can get a baby at Costco.

Renee:              I did guys, I dreamt that along with home cleaning services to go back to our dialogue that is clearly on my mind that I could get housekeeping and children at Costco. I don't, that's it.

Keith:              Thanks for joining us for another episode. I'm Keith.

Kate:               I'm Kate.

Renee:              I'm Renee, and it's okay if you're not Okay.

Keith:              Happy new year. First of all, 2020 hard to believe that it's here. We're gonna take a little twist on new year's resolutions in this episode, but before we do a couple housekeeping things. First of all, we have a Facebook group for all of our fantastic listeners to help folks connect. You can ask questions. You get some exclusive content from us hosts. You can find that at facebook.com/groups/ it's okay podcast or just look for the name of the podcast on Facebook. It's okay if you're not okay. And then secondly, it really helps us reach more people. If you tell at least one person to listen to the podcast so you can share the link on your favorite podcast app or just post on your social media. However that helps us reach more people. So if you could do that for us, that would be awesome and we would be forever grateful.

Renee:              Thank you.

Kate:               Whoo.

Keith:              Kate just tried only to smile.

Renee:              This is a podcast.

Keith:              There is no video.

Keith:              So new year's resolutions. So these last few weeks, most of us have been thinking looking back to 2019 things that we would have liked to have done differently. Looking forward into this new year of 2020 and setting these goals for us. Maybe by the time folks are listening to this, they've already given up on their new year's resolution. I don't know. But goals are a huge part of what we do in the mental health center, particularly when we're working with clients. And so I wanted to take just a minute, Renee, to have you give us some perspective on goals with clients and then talk about how those, um, for the remainder of the episode. So talk about how those goals fit into everyday life for everybody, even if you're not receiving formal treatment in some way, but just how they can be a helpful thing to think about.

Renee:              Yeah, I appreciate it. I think the not glamorous side of goal setting or treatment planning as we like to call it in the mental health treatment sector is it helps kind of regulate what we do then I'll talk about the glamorous side. Um, I firmly believe that if we're not working towards something then we are at greater risk for becoming stagnant and in really any way, shape or form. And so, um, in the mental health treatment world, I often tell clientele goal setting is really so that we know that there's progress being made and we're always having something to look forward to. Uh, one of the risk factors I talk about, especially when I did a lot of work with youth was we about a forshortened sense of future. That was a risk factor for depression, for suicidal ideation when someone can't truthfully conjure up plans, ideas or see themselves in the future. Right. foreshortened sense of future. So it'd be like a risk factor I would look for. And so the goals are, can honestly be used as a way to assess for that goal should really be in client's words. Um, that means they can not be as clinically worded as maybe I want them to be. But, um, it's the client's goals. It's not Rene's as a, as a therapist it is what do you want to work on? How will you see that progress is being made? And it's my job to do all the fancy documentation behind the scenes and that's okay. So yeah, client voice to be heard is really important in the goal.

Keith:              Yeah. So if that is, can be a risk factor, the lack of being able to see some kind of self in the future. Is the opposite of that a healthy perspective of future? Is that a sign or can be a sign of mental wellness?

Renee:              Absolutely. I have a, yes, I believe that to be true. Um, so I would, I would say as I have coined, not not coined, sorry as I have used as I have used the term foreshortened sense of future as the risk factor, the protective factor. Right. So I just, I like that word. Seeing yourself in the future being goal oriented and guys, I don't care if the goal is monumental or the goal is for tomorrow. Okay. It's point a to point B is a goal. Point B is where we want to have clients see themselves and that's a protective factor.

Keith:              Yeah. So protective factor is a term I had to learn being here. So risk factor, self-explanatory. We use that in lots of different realms. But protective factor was a new to me. At Johnson County mental health center. So, um, for our listeners that is just what you'd think. Now by our context, the opposite of a risk factor, it's a factor that would lean towards, make it more likely today it would have healthy, uh, mental wellness as opposed to at risk for something else. So I think it'd be interesting. So thinking of new year's resolutions we've, we're really talking about um, often big things, but sometimes those goals setting small, I wonder if we might have times examples of little goals that we've accomplished that were meaningful to us. But the outside world, it's not something you put on Facebook. You're right. You know, it's not something you're like, Hey look at this cool thing I did today. It's just for you as meaningful but to others not. And Kate you have been quiet for far too long so I'm going to throw it your direction

Kate:               cause I had the hiccups, my honest I'm back, here trying not to hiccup into the microphone. So small goals that would be relevant to me and not so much everyone else would be keeping my living space relatively clean. That would be cause to everyone else what may be sometimes are considered the normal quote, day to day tasks for me sometimes are more difficult to achieve. And so those for me would be the small ones where I'm not going to go home to my parents and be like, guess what? I cleaned up my bathroom and they would probably look at me and be like, congratulations on being adults like, but sometimes for me that's those big goal or a big goal. So

Renee:              I like that you just said a big goal. I think we get, and I know Kate should keep talking cause I got a little big turn, but I'm going to interupt.

Kate:               you're saving me the hiccups I was back in like.

Renee:              I love that you just said big goal because it is so subjective. It's my goal. My goal might be cleaning up my bathroom and that might be really huge to me and that's what matters. or it might be, I have the goal to climb Mount Everest and that can be a huge undertaking. Maybe for someone though, who is an avid rock climber that's been training and practicing for years on years, maybe that's not their biggest goal. So I would just, again, um, the comparison game, you'll always fail, right? Don't, don't do that. Especially in the goal setting world. Own your own goals. Big or small. We can take those words away if we went to, um, just make them meaningful to yourself.

Kate:               You're more likely to achieve them when it aligns with your values, your beliefs, your interests, all of that.

Keith:              Do you find, or how do you find that goal? Like, so you mentioned that sometimes doing that is difficult and so that's why it's a goal for you and why that's important to you. When you've successfully cleaned your bathroom, how does that, accomplishing that goal or not accomplishing that goal? Impact the rest of your wellness or,

Kate:               well, okay, this is where I'm going to just, you know, throw everything off. So I see goals as both, um, K as what you said earlier. Protective and risk factors. So I look at them very differently. in the workplace I use with my, in my role within public health and mental health, I use goals to align everything that I do, make sure that I'm being effective. And so for that I do smart goals. So specific, measurable, attainable, reliable or relevant, and then timely. It's kind of format. Like, okay, it's screaming out in my head, read it out in my head. I can't spell in the first place, let alone get them all out because you have deadlines at work. So I follow goals religiously in the workplace. I will be honest, I don't at home. And so I have to know and that's because I've had to learn my personality. So that's where I'm going with this. So for me personally, I use the word, yeah, I have a goal to make sure I'm on top of my cleaning at home. But I found that I would get too rigid in my thinking with my goals. And so I would be like, okay, I have to do this by this date and it has to look this way. And Oh man, I've gotten out homework and work and everything and that goal doesn't get met. Well why try? Cause I didn't, I didn't achieve it. So you know, that was a quote fail. And so now we're done. And so I had to change my thinking and say for X, Y, and Z, I'm choosing to do X, Y, and Z. I had to be more of a choice than I'm being forced to complete it. And so because what was happening, and it still does is my mental wellness would tank if I wasn't meeting my weight goals or my exercise goals or my cleaning goals or you know, goals that you align that meet your family's needs. And yeah, I would just, I would lose it cause I, it was going outside of those, the rigidity and the black and white thinking that I had. And so I had to take that apart. And I have two very different worlds when it comes to goals.

Renee:              That level of insight I love,

Kate:               I gonna go back to hiccuping while you say that.

Renee:              Awesome. Hi, I'm Renee. I'm here to relieve Kate or the listeners of Kate's hiccups for this episode. Um, I, I love that you have the insight enough to know how to set a goal for yourself in a certain environment and how to reframe it when you need it to be the best for yourself. I think that is what goal setting is. It's not about listing, these are my three goals that I need to accomplish. It's about right. Am I moving forward in some way? Am I looking forward to something? Do I have something to hold myself accountable to that I, I love it. It's so cliche, but I love it. Right. If I stand for nothing, I fall for everything as simple as standing for I'm going to get a task done today

Kate:               And it had to be flexible. Like for me, like I had to have flexibility in what my needs were because what my need is in January is going to be very different from what I'm needing in March. And so by priorities are shifting, you know, I don't do it alone. That's the other thing that I want people to hear is that as you're like, so the level of awareness, it's like well I didn't get there. Just me processing by myself. Yeah. Family and friends and counselors, you know, helping learn that. Um, I also don't like to use the word fail cause I'm like, you know, I learned and so it's like, so I'm having to change some of that thinking and because that's how I would just get so off track. Is by just, you know, if I popped one tire while I might as well just pop all four and go along the way.

Renee:              Isn't that, isn't that probably why most people can identify with the whole new year's resolution setting blues. I am going to write a new song called that. New Year's resolute. I don't know what I just said. Dang it I have write it down next time. Thanks is that we go into goal setting all or nothing, maybe not goal setting and we go into goal setting with like the our utmost potential in mind but we go into goal execution all or nothing and I don't know what we do in our life. That's all or nothing.

Keith:              Yeah. And I think new year's is a particularly interesting because there is a community part of when you're setting the resolution there's like um, I don't want to say peer pressure cause that's not really what I mean, but just like a sense of belonging. So you, you are adding to your sense of belonging by joining your friends and family and looking back and sending her resolution to move forward. And then the challenge is the new year's day or new year's Eve parties over, and then you go about your everyday life in the next couple of days and all of a sudden there is not that everybody working together to accomplish those resolutions. You're kind of back to your own vices or your own devices to accomplish that or not. And so depending on how reasonable your goal was and what support you have around you, you're successful or not.

Renee:              Yeah. Oh, I, I couldn't agree more and I am absolutely the billboard sandwich board advertisement for setting a new year's resolution, uh, completely annexing it by January 3rd and then going, Hey Renee, um, think about some things that are maybe a little more realistic or maybe I did absolutely fall off a wagon. Literally that quickly reminding myself to, you have the entire year.

Kate:               and you're human.

Renee:        Cut it out, cut it out and keep going. Keep going. Failure doesn't mean you can never do it again. Failure again. I don't, I don't, I didn't fail. I didn't, I didn't fail because I got off course a little and then got back on. I, that's how to failure to me learning myself. It's living life. Um, so yeah, I, I would echo what Kate says in, um, when you find yourself and maybe some of that head spinning thoughts of I have failed, dig deep in reframing. What do I do differently? How do I maybe get to the same outcome, um, doing something different with different supports or assistance. Is that really realistic for me? Think about it. It's okay, it's okay.

Kate:               And you might even learn that that goal was even one that you want to have and sure you might get on that track and you're like, okay, I made that decision because everyone else around me decided that they wanted to do X, Y, and Z. So I picked it up and by not succeeding in this first try, maybe I just realized this really wasn't for what I wanted. So even if you don't get back on track with that, it's still a lesson learned or something. Yeah,

Keith:              I was thinking about a little goals for me and it's kind of a been an ongoing thing and sometimes maybe flows into more of rule of life or self care type things, but like I keep it hidden as much as I can at work. But I, I'm a gamer, uh, or have been a gamer in the past. And so most people I think would find that a little surprising, at least at first

Kate:               I was at first and not acting surprised now cause I've learned that yet, but.

Renee:              I am, I did not know that

Keith:              not nearly the gamer I used to be. Uh, but there was a time when I realized that it wasn't, the gaming itself was a problem, uh, but the lack of sleep was, and so I just, I just like at one point came to this conclusion that, you know, I'm going to be more effective in every area of my life if I don't play video games. And so there was, I had this, this two year stretch where I just didn't play any video games at all and that, and that was years ago. And now I'm, I'm constantly in that cycle of whether that's console, gaming or you know, little piddly games on your smartphone. Uh, I'll get a new game and play for awhile. And then I'm like, okay, I'm going to delete all the games off my phone and not play any for a while. But those, those become little goals for me of recognizing, you know, thinking about how those little goals, um, make a difference. I don't post on or I don't tell anyone besides my wife who's always like, I'm not surprised. I was just waiting for you to do it anyways. Uh, then I delete phones off or games off my phone. Um, but I don't tell anybody else to that cause it's just silly. It's just, I had this goal, I had this decision, like, you know what, I just want to reshape that to how my life is right now. And so I'm not going to have any games on my phone for weeks or months or longer. I don't know. Um, and then I do that and it reshapes my life and it's good. And then at some point I decide I'm gonna play a little bit for a while and that's fine too. And um, so those are just little goals important to me, help me be higher functioning and better in other areas of my life. Um, and celebrate it.

Renee:              I'm, I'm, I'm brought to, I know that, first of all, thanks for sharing that. All right. That's, that's you being an insightful and vulnerable and no, I don't think we share some of those quote unquote little things because we don't get right. their response of I climbed Mount Everest, right? Oh, I understand that. But that could be a big feat to you and I'm proud of you for doing that. I, it also takes me to a place of, you got small kids and so I'm certain that you and your wife celebrate the small things, your small quote unquote, that children do because you are raising them in hopes that your affirmation and your praise of those, we can call it milestones. We can call it successes, right? That they choose to continue that behavior or they can choose to do on their own. One day.

Keith:              I have a great example of this right now. My six year old has just started getting his own breakfast in the morning and that. He gets it for his three year old brother and.

Renee:              Nobel peace prize.

Keith:              . Yes. Uh, it's a big deal for him. You know, all the kids are different. And so my, my oldest has always been kind of like self-sufficient, so like starter do it herself type. And, and my six year old is not, not typically that, but every morning now he, he, uh, this is a real simple, real little, I feel like I, I mean, yes, huge. He opens the freezer and gets Eggo waffles out and puts them in a toaster for himself and his brother every morning. And it makes a world of difference on our morning routine and it's so we're celebrating that he is doing something. himself and it's not a struggle for us to get them to do it.

Renee:              and he doesn't get consequences if he doesn't do it. I probably know enough to know that, but I, I can't wait for, you know, let's, let's fast forward 30 years when that young man is 36 and is having some of the same internal dialogue that your, you are having going, Hey, I'm, I'm making this small behavior change. I'm doing this for the goodness of myself, for the goodness of others. I want to do this for X, Y, Z timeframe. Um, you, you are instilling that. I, I wish we celebrated the small things in each other more. I wish we told each other about this quote unquote small things more because.

Kate:               I'll call you next time I fold my laundry I will.

Renee:              literally got home from vacation four loads of laundry and 2 are put away. And to me by the end of the week, I really hope I can have two more loads put away. That will be monumental for me. It really will be. Um, and I will celebrate it for myself and I'll probably tell my bestie about it too, because she's the one that come over and sits on my couch. AKA closet and clothes aren't put away.

Renee:              But it's those things that get me through my day to day it. I know I like the big things. I understand that it's, it's the small things, and again, I use quotes, it's going to get old this episode, I know it, but it's those things that keep me so connected with myself. So connected with the folks that are sharing those things with me. Absolutely. Celebrate those things. I am, again, I'm really proud of the insight you have in making those tweaks. And it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can get back into playing a game for an X amount of time. You can use the skills of insight, you have to set a goal or have a different behavior for a certain amount of time after that and maneuver through it. And that's okay.

Kate:               Well, and there's a couple things that come to mind hearing you share all of that great advice. So the first one, like you said, I just want to reiterate the importance of having small goals along the way as you work towards whatever that bigger one is. Because there is nothing more exhausting and nothing that can derail you quicker than having a huge, a daunting goal out there and not being able to celebrate as openly the small things along the way. But when I ever am working with individuals around developing healthy goals, because goals, like I said, it can be healthy or unhealthy. Um, the importance of going back to when, if we were talking, working with a little kid who is learning how to walk and you see a kid, they start to stand there a little wobbly, they take a couple steps and they fall and then we as adults are like, Oh my gosh, you did so good and we celebrate.Then we help them back up and we encourage them again and it's the idea of letting ourselves be that child, learning how to walk again and celebrating when we get wobbly and knowing that it's okay that we have people to help lift us back up and take a couple steps and they'll fall back down a little bit and you know, give ourselves a Pat on the back of I'm two steps farther. Yeah. Whatever that is. So I always encourage people, let yourself be that child learning to walk again, who needs supports, who needs to be celebrated and then keep moving on.

Renee:              Yeah. I like the metaphor.

Keith:              Yeah, for sure. I just was thinking when you, when you think about in your life, the, the small goals that we've been talking about that are really like goals in our daily life or daily routines of needing to accomplish in some way versus some of those bigger goals like finishing a degree or climbing a mountain, doing a new hiking trail, writing a book, whatever. That a lot of those big goals, we celebrate the journey along the way to accomplishing those. And at the end, you know, there's a graduation ceremony or some big picture or something that you're really, a culmination of it, it has its own, is kind of this its own praise or its own benefit to you just in the goal itself. And I think about some of these small goals we've been talking about, you know, laundry and bathroom and putting a waffle in the toaster, that there's not usually a, um, a culmination of that goal. But the way in which it actually impacts the other areas of your life that's significant. Like that's where you feel in some ways you feel that you feel that more. I don't know.

Renee:              I get what you're saying. I get it. I am elated. I was elated at graduation. Let's get real. That's amazing. That didn't, nccesarily that elation or that joy didn't necessarily, I don't, I don't know if I necessarily feel that today. I don't know if that's the same feeling I have having graduated 13 years ago with a master's degree, whoop, whoop de doo.But I'm making my home presentable for guests or comfortable for myself when I want to have space recharge and rejuvenate. That brings me joy. That brings me,That has the day to day satisfaction versus a career or like, right.

Keith:              Like, so, I mean, Kate and I are both in school right now doing, you know, so doing homework, our life patterns are completely changed and yes, all the time constant and when we're done we won't have that anymore and we will definitely be celebrating that. I can't wait to be able to start reading novels. Oh yeah. I know my wife has already told me no. Um, and.

Renee:              no one will ever have to tell me not to go back to school, done.

Keith:              And it will definitely shape the rest of our lives. The fact that we're doing this as far as the day to day impact in the, in the rhythms of life, that when you're really in a, in the groove and the grind of work and kids and school and friends and family and all those things, it's those little goals that really change the way that you can experience the day to day.

Renee:              And I would go as far to say those are the best goals for our mental wellness.

Renee:              Yeah.

Keith:              Yeah.

Renee:              And so that's why when I talk about goal setting, kind of getting us back full circle in the client world, uh, we talk about right, mental health, you, you right, someone's seeking treatment because there's some part of their life where they don't feel that they are, are functioning or performing to their best. And so we want to identify that. We always want to identify what's the problem. Sorry, that's a yucky word. But what's, what's going on that we need to set a goal around and we, we, we really kind of dial it in in the treatment planning world. So set a big goal, awesome employment. Now let's set objectives. And those are those little things that, that Kate was talking about. That is the essence of it. So how about wake up on time? How about submit one application? How about um, build, build a skill, learn a skill, right? All of that gets me towards this awesome job that I get to have a career. But it's the little things. I don't do all the little things. I'm never getting a job. right? Just those little, the little things. And then it's, um, we go a step further where I take some accountability as the clinician in your life as the intervention, what am I, what can I do to help you get there? And so again, that's just again, going back to the client, the treatment planning and we call it problem, goal, objective intervention. PGOI. Uh, and that's, uh, it's a real train of thought that, that I work through and I look through and so sometimes in my life I'll find myself going, okay, uh, you want to have friends over your couch is a closet.

Keith:              Okay. So you're PGOIing your life.

Renee:          Yes. Right. My problem is I can't. My goal is I want to, all right, so what do I need up first? First fold put away, and then I go to my interventions. I'm folding, I'm putting away, I'm satisfied. Um, intervention. Get off the couch and turn off Netflix. Actually I'm in the recliner cause the couch is the closet. So, yeah. Not to make light of any of that, but it is the objectives. It's the small things. It's the step by step. And those are just as big of a protective factor as scaling Mount Everest. and I would almost say too, like as we talk about goals that sometimes working towards their goals isn't always adding more to your plate. Sometimes your goal is going to have to be like, I'm thinking about Keith right now. Um, who's got a really cute, really amazing family at home.

Renee:              and 18 kids are we up to?

Keith:              27

Renee:              Costco?

Keith:              No!

Kate:               But you work, you work hard, you work hard here you go home, you are a husband and a dad and a son and a brother. You have all of these roles. And then after when everyone goes to bed, then your student sometimes then when you get so worn out, your goal is, okay, I need to check my mental wellness. So my goal is what can I take off my plate so that I can have better mental wellness and I can be better at all these other areas. So sometimes goal setting is removing things to help you get to a point. It's not always achieving. And so I always want to mention that there's two flip sides.

Keith:              It's so funny because that is exactly what's happened. So fall semester, feeling really stressed about school and having to talk, talk through that with my wife about what, you know, what can we do to make this better? And part of that was deciding some of my classes, most of them I have assignments due on Saturday or Sunday of each week. And so part of that was Monday nights at the beginning of each week after dinner, I actually hiding myself away to do homework for a little while so that way I don't have to carry the weight of the homework throughout the week. So that way I have more presence, mental wellness throughout the week instead of always being someplace for my mind being on the homework that I'm not doing. Yeah, totally, totally true. So that was a, that's been a goal that I've had to have Monday nights. I'm giving up that time with family when they're still awake, uh, to be able to be more present with them and the other nights.

Kate:               And that doesn't make the goal any easier. If you are talking with someone and they're like, Oh, my goal is to take X, Y, and Z off my plate. Don't diminish that as being a less than goal. Right. I would.

Renee:              I think I'd be remiss guys if I just didn't hit on the failure aspect that Kate brought up. I want to, I don't think I did a good job of validating that. It can be emotionally overwhelming when you don't hit the Mark that you've set for. yourself. I just want to, I want to validate and normalize the heck out of that, that it, it can feel catastrophic. I just want to encourage folks to kind of, you know, ground themselves, find that moment of stability and reach out for help if you can. Really truly, yeah. You are going to think it's an, it doesn't feel as like this monumental Epic failure come alongside someone so we can, we can talk with you. Come alongside someone so we can go, Hey, it feels like that. Let's start thinking about it differently. Right. Please reach out.

Kate:               I'm so glad that you said that. So in my previous place of employment, I don't even know if the two of you know this. I was a smoking cessation coach on our, on the campus for our students and our staff, and when we look at the stages of change model or theory, when you look at it, some of the models will include relapse as one of the stages and some of them won't.

Renee:              That's my belief relapse it happens.

Kate:               and I, that's the only one that I would use and I would get pushback for sometimes from other public health professionals of, Oh, we don't want to encourage and let people know. I'm like, that is what you need. You need relapse prevention. You need people to understand that and that's relapses, not just specific to treatment. Looking at any aspect of what you're trying to achieve. Doing laundry. , Where now 'm going to target to buy underwear rather than to than just doing my laundry. You know? but when we don't talk about that and normalize it, to your point, that's when people don't get back on track. Right. And you have to start planning ahead for what your barriers might be and what could make it think in advance. Okay. I know that when I have stressful weeks, so last thing I want to do is to do my laundry. Okay. So what day do I feel? Oh, the least amount of stress and maybe that will be the day that I do it or yeah.

Renee:              Every single one of us in this room has not met a goal.

Kate:               Yeah. Like learning the git up. I still cannot dance to the git up no matter how much I tried.

Renee:              I don't even know what that is.

Keith:              Well I know what it is and I know I can't do it.

Kate:               If you, if you heard the song you would know it.

Keith:              I want to talk more about this, but before I want to pause for our disclaimer. The views and opinions of this podcast do not necessarily represent those of Johnson County mental health center or Johnson County government. I was thinking about one of the times that was the hardest for me of goal that I had that I didn't achieve. And that was, I had planned out like this five year goal, like career goal. I needed to get a promotion to be able to afford to go get my doctorate and uh, I couldn't get a promotion. I couldn't get another position in the organization I was with. Uh, it changed the way I was behaving at work. So I was really working towards this promotion. And then when I get it, I felt very, uh, very much, um, hurt by that process, this whole plan. And then all of a sudden I'm like, where am I going to my life? Because it wasn't where I was. And so that was really hard. That was really hard. And it took a long time to process through that to decide things are going to be okay in a long term. Yeah.

Renee:              And, and that you're here now, right? You're here now. My probably biggest failure in, in that moment, failure not now was I don't think our listeners know. I don't know if you have, I've been married and divorced and when you enter a marriage with someone, I don't think I ever said, Hey honey, let's sit down and set a goal to be married forever. Okay. I don't do that. We don't treatment plan ourselves into a marriage. But my goal, if you do, go ahead and reach out to me or Hey, if it's successful, let me know. But when it came to a point of, truthfully, for many reasons, making the ultimate decision to step away from something that I believed in and it was not easy, there was no easy thing about it. Fast forward a decade, it was easy, right? And so just the, um, how life has gone on. I wouldn't be here today had that not happened. I wouldn't be as insightful, as vulnerable, as smart, as in touch with myself and my emotions. Um, I would not have had the significant time with my friends, my family, my career. And again, I know that's hypothetical. Maybe I would have, yeah. But I'm just living what I believe to be the best version of myself that I am. And that was a really big failure in my life at that time. That has absolutely been reframed into a healthy decision for myself to be the best that I could be.

Kate:               I love that.

Keith:        because when we talk about failures, there's a lot of ways that people deal with those and process those afterwards and try and reconcile those. And I often struggle because, um, so we've, we've talked about Clifton strengths on this podcast. One of my top five is connectedness. Everything's connected in some ways. And so like one of the phrases that's often tied to that strength theme is everything happens for a reason. And I hate that because I don't think that everything happens for a reason. However, I still can look back at those failures and see the lines stick from there to here. And it's not that there was, I think some intent at that failure to make me get to here necessarily. And I'm sure that you two have differing views on that. And all of our listeners are all over the spectrum, far left and far right of that. But just recognizing that you don't have to believe that everything happens for a reason to still appreciate today the failure you had last year or last decade or 20 years ago and how I'm here and it's okay or it's not okay. And that's okay.

Kate:               It's important to understand that if it doesn't make sense to you now where you're at, keep pushing through and keep walking the walk and eventually, whether it's one, two, three, four, 20 years down the road, however many, eventually you'll get there where you'll look back and go, okay, now I see it.

Keith:              This episode is making me like, just want to sit here and everybody share their failures and, Cause like I've just thought of like three other things of like significant failures in my life that were soul crushing or devastating or totally opposite direction. I thought life was going to go, I know we, we are much more likely when gathering with friends or in our professional lives to focus on and talk about our accomplishments when we've achieved our goal. And I mean, think about social media. That's the tendency to right?. We're much more likely to posted an accomplishment than failure.

Renee:              I scaled Everest. Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And for our listeners, there is absolutely no way I'm rock climbing or [Laughter]. This is very hypothetical,

Keith:              but I mean, just like, but we sit here and we now all of a sudden we have this opportunity because we're talking about these goals and failing them. They were talking about time that you failed and you're like, Oh yeah, I'm good. You know, like that that's made me who I am today or who I am today is true simply because I had the combination of those failures and accomplishments before now

Kate:               and eventually you'll be able to help someone else going through a similar challenge that you went through because you faced it. And so I think there's a lot of empathy that you're able to give to someone as well because you know, hello, we're human life isn't perfect. We're not perfect. Yeah. And so because of that we can be someone else's support and kind of give back to others who were willing to be there for us. Yeah.

Keith:              Yeah. Okay. So we've talked about, we've covered a lot of ground, I feel like goals. So I wonder if we can, for our listeners each think of one sort of wrap up thought we want to give that just kind of summarizes some of what we said.

Kate:          So I'll go first. Cause I've promised that I would only stick to one thing from now on and not try to bend the rules and if I have too much time to think on it, I will bend the rules.

Keith:              You can probably listen to episodes two through five or so to see all the times at least that she's broken the rules. Maybe more than that.

Kate:               Yeah, they'll probably pop up in the future. What I would say is give yourself grace. I'm going to say that cause that giving yourself grace can be being flexible with yourself, for giving yourself when things don't go the way that you had planned. So I'm going to say give yourself grace as my takeaway, I'm just going to sit with the discomfort and I am going to pass it on.

Keith:              I'm going to go back to uh, and I think it's probably because it's the biggest revelation that I had myself in the midst of this podcast I hadn't thought about before. Just how important it is to look at those little things, those little goals, those little achievements, and how much they can have a significant impact on your daily life. And, and so the flip side of that, I think that it would be an important takeaway is if you're are experiencing a large amount of stress or struggle to do things or barriers in your everyday life right now, look and see if there's just something little you can move, add to or take away your life that could make an impact day in and day out.

Renee:              Love it. My takeaway is going to go all the way back to the beginning of the episode when we talked, when I introduced, hopefully introduce the word protective factor. when you have a point B, it doesn't matter how close or how far that point B is, you are forward thinking and that is hope generating. I want you to find the hope in having a point B and having something that you're looking forward to changing, doing differently.

Keith:              Wonderful. Thanks for joining us for another episode. I'm Keith.

Kate:          I'm Kate.

Renee:        I'm Renee, and it's okay if you're not okay.